This is why I say, with not a single drop of irony, that piracy is a public service.
Piracy isn’t piracy when it’s no longer sold.
This may be hot take, but I think games are art and are part of our cultural legacy, and making steps that stops us from enjoying us from that legacy should be considered a crime, especially when they put at risk art disappearing forever.
I would start with simple rules:
- 5 years after last new copies of the game stops being sold, pirating it stops becoming a crime
- 10 years after platform (console?) stop being produced, if there is no official emulator available, all emulators of that platform become legal
- intentionally trying to stop people from buying a game without breaking above rules (for example, selling one copy for price of 9999$) is a crime
As a result, I would expect all companies to either invest in backward compatibility on unprecedented level, or more likely start porting their games to PC (because they will keep being produced), even if that meant selling copies to be used with emulators. When there is money on the table, or perspective of losing money, corporations are really quick to find solutions.
Emulators are not illegal, where did you get that from?
There are legal problems when creating emulators, sure people work hard to avoid them, but I don’t think they should have to do that in those cases, so I specifically wrote “all emulators” should be legal. For example, Dolphin to work requires cryptographic keys that technically belong to Nintendo, so they may be sued for providing them. Some emulators require you to find bios on your own because they can’t legally provide them, and their emulator doesn’t work without it.
If you bundle cryptographic keys, bios or other copyrighted content then yes obviously it’s illegal.
It’s not illegal to implement an emulator.
We need a use-it-or-lose-it clause for all copyrights. If the rights holder is not making a good faith effort to sell copies, they should forfeit their copyright entirely and the work in question goes straight to the public domain. 5 years is generous, I’d make the grace period 6 months.
This is how you get Fantastic Four (1994)
I’d take it a step further and say we need a good default license that kicks in after a certain amount of time has passed until the end of the copyright (at which point no license at all is required).
The price of the license will just be based on a formula that takes revenue and portion of the end product that uses the copyright material into account. So someone issuing their own print of a book that came out would pay more than someone who publishes a fan fic sequel and just uses the characters.
And trademarks still strictly enforced, since copying that is trying to pass yourself off as another producer, or fraud. Trademarks are how the original author and the good derivative works will be differentiated from the shitty ones.
This strikes me as weird and unnecessarily convoluted. IMO the best solution would be to limit corporate held copyrights to 10 years after first publication or 15 years after creation, whichever is sooner, and limit individually held copyrights to the life of the creator. After that’s up, the work becomes public domain, and people can freely post it without repercussions, meaning the masses will handle archival and distribution essentially without prompting. Simple, with very few loopholes as far as I can see.
Emulators are not illegal. ROMs are illegal if you didn’t rip it yourself. If you did rip it yourself it’s a gray area. See https://youtu.be/yj9Gk84jRiE
Or limit copyright terms to ~20 years and repeal Section 1201 (together with 512 for good measure). That would cover far more than just old games.
As a result, I would expect all companies to either invest in backward compatibility on unprecedented level, or more likely start porting their games to PC (because they will keep being produced), even if that meant selling copies to be used with emulators. When there is money on the table, or perspective of losing money, corporations are really quick to find solutions.
We’re already there. Backwards compatibility is the highest it’s ever been. With the rise of digital stores, popular retro games are on every platform that publishers think they can make money on. Re-releases of popular classics seem to happen all the time.
However, the sad reality is vast majority of those 87% wouldn’t be profitable to release. They are the games that sold poorly on release or have been out of the spotlight for so long that most people have forgotten they even exist. There needs to be work porting the release to new platforms, there are licenses to pay for music and licensed characters. I have no idea if residuals are a thing for video games but if they exist they cost money too. If a game hasn’t been re-released at this point, it’s not becuase there is some backwards compatibility issue; it’s because the bean counters have decided the cost of porting outweighs any sales it may generate. There is no “money left on the table” for them as it would cost more to port than they believe the game’s re-release would ever make. Those games will never be legally re-released and should fall into some sort of public domain.
Jesus that’s depressing. Thank god for the Internet or wonder how much of that 87% would already be lost forever.
Think of everything lost from even recent eras without the internet! Like 99% of what we’ve made, even in the domain of awesome impactful stuff, must have been lost to time
A lot of it got lost because we invented newer technologies, sure we can’t work stone with the same methods the ancients used to but that’s because we have bolts, steel, and concrete now.
colonialism also destroyed millions of art/literature
Copyright as it is today is one of humanity’s worst mistake.
You can actually blame Disney for much of this.
Well, humanity did make a HUGE amount of mistakes worse than current copyright, to be honest. That one’s an abomination, but we’re generally really good at ruining stuff.
that’s why the “ahoy mateys” system exists
There’s likely a lot of “shovelware” in that figure, which doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be preserved but that could be 1 reason the percentage is so high. There were a ton of DS and Wii games nobody would recognize today
Sure, but one person’s shovelware is another person’s cherished childhood. We should preserve what’s been created as much as reasonably possible, simply for the record.
There’s likely a lot of “shovelware” in that figure
one man’s trash is another man’s treasure
One man’s Cory is another man’s House
Why in gods name did this make me laugh lmfao
Ah, dem shovelware packs.
This is why emulation is important.
Most classic everything is no longer available. This is a function of time and the general human desire to make new stuff. Otherwise antiques wouldn’t really be special.
If we want our stuff more permanent, this will be a change from the past that we need to specifically enact. Otherwise it’s just people being subtly out-of-touch with how time will eventually destroy not just them, but their works too. Only the influences it left behind echo into the future, for as long as our art does anyway.
This is a new trend thanks to so many products requiring web services to function. Back in the day the only thing that made products inaccessible was the fact they were not produced.
Nowadays a lot of stuff is just a useless brick purely because an unnecessary web endpoint has been shut down. Especially video games.
I would say it’s not new per se, just a new mechanism for an old phenomenon.
If that one problem were solved, it would improve the situation, but not perfectly remedy it. This just makes it more noticeable, it reeks pretty badly of planned obsolescence.
But it isn’t the inevitable ravages of time that take away digital media. It is easier to preserve than anything before, and there’s no lack of interest to do it. The real obstacle are laws that put corporate profits above public interest and demand that we expect an untenable amount of time such that old media just completely decays. Often old digital media only gets preserved in direct defiance to the law.
It really concerns me how this mindset has been spreading, where games and media get wiped away due to companies ceasing services with no interest in preservation, then people start to wax poetically about the inevitability as if this is Ozymandias’ statue from the poem. Not even Ozymandias himself is truly lost to time. No, a decade is nothing in terms of cultural loss, that’s not whats wiping out those works. What is responsible for it is a business strategy of disposability enabled by laws with no regards for our culture.
I genuinely think it’s inevitable, with our current technological, economic and legal frameworks. While that can change, I think the amount of effort it would require far outstrips the gain.
The entire issue bugs me a little bit, actually. It only gets so much attention because its games and the internet has a lot of gamers. There are far bigger challenges to tackle though.
There are volunteer emulator developers. There are people who downright reverse-engineer online games whose servers close down. If loss was inevitable, this couldn’t happen. The limitations can’t possibly be so great that this is easier than, you know, the company releasing server code and technical information as they phase out projects
The limitations are not technological in any sense, and they are only economic in so far as we are subjected to whatever the interests of wealthy executives and investors are as the main priority, because those pushing back against it manage to do a lot even having very little money compared to those businesses. The biggest obstacle is the law, and the law is not unchangeable. This is just a matter of the political tendencies of these years.
While I personally care particularly about games, this isn’t really just about games. As the copyright length increased, we got to a point there are old movies that also got lost because they studios behind them didn’t preserve them properly and nobody else was allowed to, so they rot away. This applies to all digital media. While I could see some limits like backing up the whole of YouTube, there is no reason why major movies or online games should just become lost by delisting.
And maybe even backing up the whole of YouTube could be possible if there was a major concerted effort among international governments to preserve all forms of digital media, rather than leaving it to the efforts of hobbyist archivers. But no, apparently all that international governments will come together to is to enforce copyright and punish piracy.
Of course there are volunteer devs. Do you think each project will always have some though? Particularly passion projects that have no profit? Just because things are a certain way now, does not mean they will be 10, 20, 40 years from now, when who knows what computing looks like.
This is the technological aspect, its swiftly changing nature making everything require maintenance. It’s a fundamental principle that seems like it will remain true for the foreseeable future. Perhaps I’ve gotten used to it simply due to the sheer quantity of projects I have seen fall by the wayside in the past decades, but it’s just a lot. The basic idea is this: At no point can you just stop and say “this thing will work for the next few decades”. Your software will go out of date, your hardware will break and replacement parts will go out of production. Etc etc. I feel like it’s just part of tech for now.
So sure, we’ve identified the problem and that’s great. But it has no good solutions. Which is why it bugs me as a debate. As I said earlier, the effort to fix this, the political will it would require, is just not worth the benefit of preserving art large-scale for the first time in human history. That’s just not good enough to fight for, in such a problematic world. Imo at least.
Btw, thanks for the engaging discussion. I’ve never debated this particular topic actually.
It’s true that not every game will keep being updated to play on the latest Windows and Android, and I agree that this would be an unrealistic expectation, But we do have a solution even for that. There are virtual machines and emulators and compatibility layers we can use to replicate these older software environments. I can play a 1990s DOS game or an Atari game just fine today, even if we don’t have River Patrol for Windows 11.
There is also a noteworthy distinction between keeping a game updated or available. Maybe we could get to a point when nobody cares about Ultima Online or Club Penguin, although it’s noteworthy that it didn’t happen yet. But we could go through decades of dust gathering only for someone to become interested in it again. Why shouldn’t we keep at least the codebase and assets and documentation available as they are for when that time comes? Then they could put the effort into porting it, or maybe just study it for learning and inspiration. And we have the means to do that today, it’s the matter of copyright infringement that gets in the way.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion. It’s a topic I care about a lot as you can tell.
The difference here is that the data exists still and can be played via emulators still. However, it violates copyright laws to do so. It has nothing to do with “time destroying all works” (at least not yet)
Good point. And with continuous maintenance to keep the ever growing number of emulators maintained with the ever-shifting operating systems, that will remain true. The moment our maintenance of any one thing stops…
If we want our stuff more permanent, this will be a change from the past that we need to specifically enact.
It’s being done for a lot of stuff, just not videogames.
From the linked article:
Libraries and archives can digitally preserve, but not digitally share video games, and can provide on-premises access only
Libraries and archives are allowed to digitally share other media types, such as books, film, and audio, and are not restricted to on-premises access
The Entertainment Software Association, the video game industry’s lobbying group, has consistently fought against expanding video game preservation within libraries and archives
The secret is crime
Now do TV
I love the sneaky Pac-Man graph.
I wonder what proportion of the average user’s rom library is from the 87%
Probably around 87% of it
deleted by creator
Why was this cross-posted to bisexual?
